Bird
Counselor 
Posts: 350
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Preferred Pronouns: they/them/their
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Post by Bird on Feb 4, 2023 18:27:12 GMT -6
This presents an angle I hadn't considered before, so thanks for that, Ala. It would be awful to have my story pigeon-holed into this group of careless books, especially since my drive to write it comes from genuine hurt. Writing this particular story comes from my own need to process the awfulness of learning that three family members and a close friend suffered systematic sexual abuse and/or SA. The knowledge has been a heavy thing to carry, and over a span of decades I've been able to witness how different personalities have coped with it in different ways. The decision to set the story in the Victorian era is deliberate for several reasons. Living in the Bible belt, I see that many Victorian attitudes still persist in regards to sexual crimes. "It didn't really happen" "Well, what did she do to encourage it?" "Keep the family secrets in the family" "Porn? What's that? Good men don't get addicted to that, so we won't acknowledge it." Hnh, yeah right. In all honesty, I'll be glad when I've finished writing this thing. It's heavy shit to deal with every day, and I'll be so glad when I can go back to writing fantasy adventure stories. Maybe that's why I've been writing fantasy shorts with humorous angles for our contests. Eesh. **hugs** It's totally valid to write from that perspective. This is a complex topic and it's an experience many of us live with...I've never been SA'd but I've been sexually harassed and harmed in other ways by men. I've been part of purity culture and grew up being told that if anything did happen it would be entirely blamed on me. It's never the man's fault. So says many with certain views. Having that ingrained as a teen was extremely difficult to work through as an adult. I'm still working through it at 36. If I was written as a character, that psychological background would greatly inform my choices and outlook. It would present itself in different ways, from my choice in clothing to my demeanor, to my response to other kinds of trauma. I admire and understand those kinds of characters and stories. <3 I just read Legendborn and the sequel Bloodmarked. Without giving anything major away, the main character is a Black girl in the south and involved in an ancient Order based around Arthurian legend. So...everyone she encounters in the Order is white and there are MANY microaggressions and outright racist comments she endures throughout the two books. Her ancestors were enslaved and that plays a huge part in her present situation. HOWEVER, the book is about liberation. About finding your power. It's about breaking tradition and forging new paths forward. So even though slavery and racism is in the story and is super important to her lived experience, it's not the entire theme of the books...if that makes sense. So you can definitely talk about the personal and social impacts of SA, how that personally harms your character and how she heals from it. I see that as a very valuable story to tell and one not to shy away from. *peaks into the room* I think it is important and valid when we decided to write to deal with the trauma of either SA itself (in my case) or having witnessed other's deal with it (Raveneye's) or deal with the sexual harassment (Ala's). I told Raveneye this before, but secondhand trauma is a real thing. When you witness someone you love suffering from trauma, when you take on helping them through it, that can cause secondhand trauma, especially if you don't have a solid support to help you as you help them. And let's face it -- our current society is not very good at allowing us to build good support systems. That secondhand trauma is valid and real too, and requires healing too. And sometimes writing is a great way to find that healing (as painful as it can be at times). That's valid in its own right, and I think it's important too when done with care (like y'all do).
When I wrote the Kate and Kia novel -- Raveneye I honestly can't remember if I told you this -- the ending of it, as brutal as it was, was to represent the pain and terror of being in an abusive relationship, unable to talk about it, because I didn't know if I was imagining it. If it was real. It's why Kate struggled to acknowledge whether Kia is really alive, since she's just a voice in her head for part of the book. Or how Kia struggles to escape, but is assaulted by those wanting to find out who she's connected to, to use her as a pawn. That powerlessness they faced mirrored exactly how I felt, and them playing to their strengths to try to get through it, was me trying to find a lifeline to get out of where I was.
That version of the book was tainted heavily by my abuser, it distorted the original plan for the tale, and really upset the balance of that world. So then, once I'd escaped, I realized I had to rewrite it. I had to return to its roots. I had to exorcise the abuser from the book entirely. It's not an easy task, and I'm not really done doing it. I took a break because it hurts. It hurts to go through and take out every sentence, word, idea that my abuser had demanded I include. ONce I pared away nearly all of it, I had a different story. What was that different story? It was the story of me persevering because I had all of you. I had my dearest friends (y'all know who you are  ). I had my younger sister. I found my way out of that darkness led on by the lights y'all held for me. And the Kate and Kia story became about that. How Kate and Kia suffered a great trauma, but the light of their love and their family and friends illuminate the path forward. Despite all the hardships that threatened to tear them apart, that light keeps shining. They keep getting up. They keep finding ways to persevere, to be together again, and to build a liberated world that is just and equitable. They discover that it's possible, and so they do it. But the entire journey is them healing and growing.
THAT is the story that needs to be told when SA appears in a tale. It should never be used as shock value or as a cheap way to add in drama or character angst.
What this world needs more than anything is hope. There are horrible things that happen in this world, but there are good things too. Beautiful things. How do we find those things when we are trapped in webs of despair and pain?
When I was trapped in that abusive relationship, when I almost died, the person I reached out to one of my closest friends (again, you know who you are). It was the hardest thing I'd ever done. To call up that friend. Weeping and admitting that I wanted to die. That I couldn't handle the abuse anymore, the pain, the hurt, the feeling violated and lost and utterly alone. And that friend held up her light and embraced me with her kind words of support, with her listening, with her hope. She could see a future when I couldn't. She could see a path forward when I saw only death. She carried me for a little ways, until I could stand on my own again. That story there is what needs told. That is beautiful, it is full of love and hope, and it is what survivors like me need to hear. We need to know people will hear us. Listen to us. That they won't turn us away. Yes, carrying me for that while - I know it caused trauma for my dear friend, and I've done what I could to be present for her in turn. Because it is hard to carry this, but that's why we carry it together. We aren't alone.
That's what these stories need to tell. Survivors aren't alone. That no matter how horrific, how painful, how traumatic -- we will get through it. We are getting through it. We are worth life and love and respect.
That is the story I wish would be told when SA comes up in fiction. And if that's not the story that's being told, I need writers to sit their ass down and ask themselves: "Did I use SA just for a plot hook? Did I use it to give the character angst? Do I fail to cover their healing and show SA as wrong?" If that answer is yes, then stop. Don't write it. Trivializing trauma in that way causes severe harm. It perpetuates the idea that SA is a joke, that people like me deserve what we get, that our lives and our trauma and our pain is to be dismissed for a cheap parlor trick. Don't do that.
Writing has power. It has tremendous power, and we need to think about the consequences of that power. (Gonna quote Spiderman now. haha). "With great power comes great responsibility."
So use that power wisely. Use it kindly. Write the story your heart tells you to write, and keep in mind the impact it will have. Keep in mind what ideas you will be sharing, and if those are the ideas you want to be sharing. Because I think sometimes people will throw in SA in a trivial way and not even realize that by doing so, they have shared a harmful, sexist idea that consent doesn't matter, that trauma is a joke, that we need to just "get over it" magically. There's been times when I pointed this out to a fellow writer, and despite them protesting that they didn't believe that, I'd ask, "Then why is your writing saying the opposite?"
What is our writing saying about us?
Is our writing sharing what we wish to share? Or has our writing been influenced by society's often harmful socializations? How much of our writing is us and how much is what's been socialized into us? And do we want to keep perpetuating those socializations? Or do we want to tell a new story - one truer to who we are, one where we dig deep and discover what healing, what love, what justice, and what hope could truly look like?
Anyway, that's what I think.
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 5, 2023 0:27:47 GMT -6
I just want to apologize firsthand if the topic brought up unpleasant memories towards anyone. The intention was to provide a discussion and I didn't mean to make anyone feel uncomfortable.
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Post by Alatariel on Feb 5, 2023 14:56:27 GMT -6
I just want to apologize firsthand if the topic brought up unpleasant memories towards anyone. The intention was to provide a discussion and I didn't mean to make anyone feel uncomfortable. I think this has been an important conversation and it has been handled well by all who have participated. <3 |
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Bird
Counselor
Posts: 350
Custom Title: World Creator and Destroyer
Preferred Pronouns: they/them/their
HARD: 1700
MEDIUM: 400
EASY: 110
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Post by Bird on Feb 5, 2023 16:15:25 GMT -6
I just want to apologize firsthand if the topic brought up unpleasant memories towards anyone. The intention was to provide a discussion and I didn't mean to make anyone feel uncomfortable. Hey, me sharing my experiences is a sign that I was comfortable enough to do so in your thread. There's no reason to apologize. You've been kind and thoughtful throughout. |
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 5, 2023 18:09:09 GMT -6
Thanks guys  |
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Post by RAVENEYE on Feb 6, 2023 11:32:55 GMT -6
Amen to all that, ya'll!
Wow, Bird, I honestly didn't know how you'd react to this topic, and your beautiful post up there shows how much healing has happened. I'm so proud of you.
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Bird
Counselor
Posts: 350
Custom Title: World Creator and Destroyer
Preferred Pronouns: they/them/their
HARD: 1700
MEDIUM: 400
EASY: 110
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Post by Bird on Feb 6, 2023 17:21:26 GMT -6
Amen to all that, ya'll! Wow, Bird, I honestly didn't know how you'd react to this topic, and your beautiful post up there shows how much healing has happened. I'm so proud of you. *hugs* Thank you. And well, you helped me so much. <3 As did a lot of folks here. I still got a ways to go, but then the story isn't over yet. There's more story to tell. And I still need to finish the Kate and Kia story. To finish fixing it. I think once I do that, I'll be able to finally shut that chapter of my life. I think that it's important to share what I learned in this arduous, long healing journey. Maybe my words will help others? Get folks to think? I hope so. It's a hard topic to discuss, but y'all did so with kindness and thoughtfulness, and I'm grateful for that too. |
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 6, 2023 18:06:04 GMT -6
Just hearing y'all's stories is a solid reminder that you're never a victim. You survived and showed your respective monsters that they have no power over you. Me personally I haven't experienced SA but, as mentioned before, I have known others who did. The closes I guess was when I was in high school I have been touched inappropriately on frequent occasions. Which developed my tendency to tense up whenever someone tries to hug me. I haven't told anyone this due to society's ignorance that things like this usually happen to a female and having that happened to a guy is deemed unmasculine by society's standards.
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Post by Alatariel on Feb 6, 2023 21:45:35 GMT -6
Just hearing y'all's stories is a solid reminder that you're never a victim. You survived and showed your respective monsters that they have no power over you. Me personally I haven't experienced SA but, as mentioned before, I have known others who did. The closes I guess was when I was in high school I have been touched inappropriately on frequent occasions. Which developed my tendency to tense up whenever someone tries to hug me. I haven't told anyone this due to society's ignorance that things like this usually happen to a female and having that happened to a guy is deemed unmasculine by society's standards. Thanks for bringing up the topic and being willing to listen and discuss all the nuances. i'm sorry that happened to you. You're right about society and the stigma that comes with any kind of SA or harassment toward males. It's why Brendan Fraser was blacklisted by the Hollywood Foreign Press years ago. He spoke out about being SA'd. It's terrible and should be talked about more. |
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 8, 2023 18:22:08 GMT -6
There is a writing pet peeve of mine I'd usually see when it concerns this topic. OK you have a situation where a character, usually a female, is about to get SA'd till she is saved by a male character. That always irritates the hell out of me because it takes the spotlight away from the victim and uses it to elevate the male character by showcasing how heroic he was in that scenario. The tired damsel in distress trope so to speak.
I remember this one story where the MC fought off her attacker, but the narrative was all about her dealing with the trauma of her attack. While she prevented that to happen the fact that it almost did stick with her for a while.
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Post by Alatariel on Feb 9, 2023 14:20:41 GMT -6
There is a writing pet peeve of mine I'd usually see when it concerns this topic. OK you have a situation where a character, usually a female, is about to get SA'd till she is saved by a male character. That always irritates the hell out of me because it takes the spotlight away from the victim and uses it to elevate the male character by showcasing how heroic he was in that scenario. The tired damsel in distress trope so to speak. I remember this one story where the MC fought off her attacker, but the narrative was all about her dealing with the trauma of her attack. While she prevented that to happen the fact that it almost did stick with her for a while. Yes, I agree. The damsel in distress trope is super annoying, especially in this particular scenario. So this past year I read a lot of romance novels and the cool thing is that the good ones subvert the damsel in distress trope a lot. A good male MC stands back while the female MC fights her own battles and learns to find her own power/voice/courage. The bad romance novels had the male MC constantly stepping in to take charge and erase the female MC's voice. In real life, a lot of romantic partners take over for the other partner. Honestly, the good romance novels showed me great examples of healthy communication styles and how to advocate for myself. I was pleased to see most of the incredibly successful authors in the genre write these type of couples rather than the toxic/cliched kind. |
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 9, 2023 20:14:07 GMT -6
There is a writing pet peeve of mine I'd usually see when it concerns this topic. OK you have a situation where a character, usually a female, is about to get SA'd till she is saved by a male character. That always irritates the hell out of me because it takes the spotlight away from the victim and uses it to elevate the male character by showcasing how heroic he was in that scenario. The tired damsel in distress trope so to speak. I remember this one story where the MC fought off her attacker, but the narrative was all about her dealing with the trauma of her attack. While she prevented that to happen the fact that it almost did stick with her for a while. Yes, I agree. The damsel in distress trope is super annoying, especially in this particular scenario. So this past year I read a lot of romance novels and the cool thing is that the good ones subvert the damsel in distress trope a lot. A good male MC stands back while the female MC fights her own battles and learns to find her own power/voice/courage. The bad romance novels had the male MC constantly stepping in to take charge and erase the female MC's voice. In real life, a lot of romantic partners take over for the other partner. Honestly, the good romance novels showed me great examples of healthy communication styles and how to advocate for myself. I was pleased to see most of the incredibly successful authors in the genre write these type of couples rather than the toxic/cliched kind. It's exactly why, in my stories, the ladies hold their own just as much as the guys do. It's why I find the character Princess Leia to be a highly inspiring character. Because she came right around the time when female characters of that era had to depend on a guy to do the fighting for them but Princess Leia defied that trope. |
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Post by Alatariel on Feb 10, 2023 12:28:34 GMT -6
Yes, I agree. The damsel in distress trope is super annoying, especially in this particular scenario. So this past year I read a lot of romance novels and the cool thing is that the good ones subvert the damsel in distress trope a lot. A good male MC stands back while the female MC fights her own battles and learns to find her own power/voice/courage. The bad romance novels had the male MC constantly stepping in to take charge and erase the female MC's voice. In real life, a lot of romantic partners take over for the other partner. Honestly, the good romance novels showed me great examples of healthy communication styles and how to advocate for myself. I was pleased to see most of the incredibly successful authors in the genre write these type of couples rather than the toxic/cliched kind. It's exactly why, in my stories, the ladies hold their own just as much as the guys do. It's why I find the character Princess Leia to be a highly inspiring character. Because she came right around the time when female characters of that era had to depend on a guy to do the fighting for them but Princess Leia defied that trope. I absolutely LOVE Princess (General) Leia. She is one of my all time favorite characters. She serves as excellent inspiration for female characters who can be independent, strong, and still show emotion. I do hate when female characters are supposed to be "strong" but they're really just unemotional robots. That's not strength. Leia is perfect. We see her pain and sadness side by side. We see her determination and fight. We see her fall in love without letting it erase everything else about her that's awesome. Great. Now I have to go watch the original trilogy again. |
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Post by saintofm on Feb 17, 2023 18:44:53 GMT -6
Just hugs all around.
In somecases i can see getting this off one's chest as a way of therapy of dealing with it
Alot of points i was going to make have been covered better by Halhalla's Erikson, Raveneye, Altarerial, and Bird, so let the fumbling commence.
VALHALLA: The recovering from a vampire bite being like surviving SA makes sense to me. Sensuality and the vampire's kiss has been mixed long before Bella Lagusa donned the cape, and the risk of loosing your humanity can be an apt metaphor, in this case on accident. For what you loose in security and safety on a emotional and mental level.
It sounds like something simalar in a Justice League Episode. Been a while since i have seen it BUT, the voice talent that did the leader of the Hawk people's invasion force needed some time to calm down as his charecters rantings to Hawk Girl sounded very much like an abusive lover, something that triggered him as he grew up in that kind of household and works with groups that combat it. I am not sure if that scene was meant to be played like that but there was enough of an overlap for the voice actor. I wonder if the same happened with your fellow student
As for Raveneye's sickos thst glorify it or Do it for shock value, there is always going to be this problem and needs be nipped in the bud ASAP. While i haven't had these guys in any of my games, but i have seen enough RPG horror stories on youtube to know there are plenty of guys as PCs or DMs that think this a good idea. This crowd and a number of writers use the excuse of "realism despite the fact their just being edgy for the sake of being an edge lord.
Seriously. They bathed in the middle ages, had colorful clothing for the same reasons we do today, and a woman could divorse her husband on the grounds he was bad in bed and the law would be in Her favor. Rape was considered just ad bad then as it is now, and lets be frank we've been victim blaming for far longer and still do today. THey just cherry pick what they want.
I also agree with Alatareriql's assessment that alot of it is just LAZY writing. Made worse when you do look at the various forms, rarely does it get any justice almost by design. Man raped by man, in prison we think probably justified, but out of it its used for comedy. Man raped by woman, its played for laughs if she isn't convetionaly beautiful and they should suck it up and be happy if she is.
Older man beds a younger girl? Heinous. Older woman beds a boy just as young as the girl in this scenario and we are applauding him for scoring. Girl SA girl? Well girl on girl is hot
Rarly is this treated with the gravity it needs.
The worse is something that had been brought up alot in this threat is a when its played for romance. We have seen this before in all manor of media. Revenge of the Nerds, 16 Candles, a number of James Bond films, 50 Shades, and more play it off scenes that are at best questionable, and at worse horrifying with or without how many years of hindsight it has been since it hit theaters. It treats these scenes as endearing when we should be getting the pitch forks and torches. ANd lets face it, it was probably a problematic depiction even for its day.
Worse case scenario is when we are expected to think this is supper sexy when we really shouldn't. The one that easily comes to mind are the novels for Vampire Hunter D, namely book 2 and 3. I haven't gotten further than that because I am scared about the gratuitous the SA had been. The books are otherwise fine, more an action adventure set in a postapocalyptic world than anything else. But even with all manner of monster from Vampires, the Blob, Werewolves, mutants and more, the writer seemed to relly too heavily on the SA for monstrous acts especially from humans.
In book 2, a few of the scenes were written more like erotica, and while they covered the shame and horror the girl was living with, it also focused on the acts and the physical response her body was having to them. The third one has it as unglamorous and horrendous, but again seems to be used as a crutch to show case the horrors of the world. One, you have monsters from fantasy, science Fiction, and Horror at your fingertips, and this is what you pick?
Second, and something that is truly damning, and something that well all noticed with a lot of the works we have mentioned that have done it poorly: If we took them out it would not have affected the story in any shape, way, or form.
First book was awesome and take out the SA the other two are great adventure books with great humor, fights, and some good lines of dialogue. But its killed insterest in a 16 book spanning series for the most part.
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Post by Valhalla Erikson on Feb 20, 2023 17:41:03 GMT -6
Just hugs all around. In somecases i can see getting this off one's chest as a way of therapy of dealing with it Alot of points i was going to make have been covered better by Halhalla's Erikson, Raveneye, Altarerial, and Bird, so let the fumbling commence. VALHALLA: The recovering from a vampire bite being like surviving SA makes sense to me. Sensuality and the vampire's kiss has been mixed long before Bella Lagusa donned the cape, and the risk of loosing your humanity can be an apt metaphor, in this case on accident. For what you loose in security and safety on a emotional and mental level. It sounds like something simalar in a Justice League Episode. Been a while since i have seen it BUT, the voice talent that did the leader of the Hawk people's invasion force needed some time to calm down as his charecters rantings to Hawk Girl sounded very much like an abusive lover, something that triggered him as he grew up in that kind of household and works with groups that combat it. I am not sure if that scene was meant to be played like that but there was enough of an overlap for the voice actor. I wonder if the same happened with your fellow student As for Raveneye's sickos thst glorify it or Do it for shock value, there is always going to be this problem and needs be nipped in the bud ASAP. While i haven't had these guys in any of my games, but i have seen enough RPG horror stories on youtube to know there are plenty of guys as PCs or DMs that think this a good idea. This crowd and a number of writers use the excuse of "realism despite the fact their just being edgy for the sake of being an edge lord.
Seriously. They bathed in the middle ages, had colorful clothing for the same reasons we do today, and a woman could divorse her husband on the grounds he was bad in bed and the law would be in Her favor. Rape was considered just ad bad then as it is now, and lets be frank we've been victim blaming for far longer and still do today. THey just cherry pick what they want. I also agree with Alatareriql's assessment that alot of it is just LAZY writing. Made worse when you do look at the various forms, rarely does it get any justice almost by design. Man raped by man, in prison we think probably justified, but out of it its used for comedy. Man raped by woman, its played for laughs if she isn't convetionaly beautiful and they should suck it up and be happy if she is. Older man beds a younger girl? Heinous. Older woman beds a boy just as young as the girl in this scenario and we are applauding him for scoring. Girl SA girl? Well girl on girl is hot Rarly is this treated with the gravity it needs. The worse is something that had been brought up alot in this threat is a when its played for romance. We have seen this before in all manor of media. Revenge of the Nerds, 16 Candles, a number of James Bond films, 50 Shades, and more play it off scenes that are at best questionable, and at worse horrifying with or without how many years of hindsight it has been since it hit theaters. It treats these scenes as endearing when we should be getting the pitch forks and torches. ANd lets face it, it was probably a problematic depiction even for its day. Worse case scenario is when we are expected to think this is supper sexy when we really shouldn't. The one that easily comes to mind are the novels for Vampire Hunter D, namely book 2 and 3. I haven't gotten further than that because I am scared about the gratuitous the SA had been. The books are otherwise fine, more an action adventure set in a postapocalyptic world than anything else. But even with all manner of monster from Vampires, the Blob, Werewolves, mutants and more, the writer seemed to relly too heavily on the SA for monstrous acts especially from humans. In book 2, a few of the scenes were written more like erotica, and while they covered the shame and horror the girl was living with, it also focused on the acts and the physical response her body was having to them. The third one has it as unglamorous and horrendous, but again seems to be used as a crutch to show case the horrors of the world. One, you have monsters from fantasy, science Fiction, and Horror at your fingertips, and this is what you pick? Second, and something that is truly damning, and something that well all noticed with a lot of the works we have mentioned that have done it poorly: If we took them out it would not have affected the story in any shape, way, or form. First book was awesome and take out the SA the other two are great adventure books with great humor, fights, and some good lines of dialogue. But its killed insterest in a 16 book spanning series for the most part. I really hate that go-to security blanket that Edgelord Writers use as an excuse to glorify the drivel that they write. Ignoring the fact that reality is far more complex than that. Also, how many rape scenes we've seen in movies or in other mediums where we've once asked if that scene is needed? I remember watching a movie called The Accused. As horrific as that scene was at least it was about the crime that was committed and the film showed just how sickening that act was. My one complaint is that I felt the victim in question was a little underwritten and the film focused way too much on the person who witnessed the event happening. Yes witnessing a crime like that committed is as traumatic but it was at the expense of the victim. |
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). I had my younger sister. I found my way out of that darkness led on by the lights y'all held for me. And the Kate and Kia story became about that. How Kate and Kia suffered a great trauma, but the light of their love and their family and friends illuminate the path forward. Despite all the hardships that threatened to tear them apart, that light keeps shining. They keep getting up. They keep finding ways to persevere, to be together again, and to build a liberated world that is just and equitable. They discover that it's possible, and so they do it. But the entire journey is them healing and growing. 
You add them to your profile as you do them around the forum.
