The Great Boob Plate Debate (and other female armor debates)

[saintofm]

For those that don't know, most female warriors in art and fiction tend to show off how beautiful they are. This usually means Red Sonja's chainmail bikini, and other like armors where having them wear nothing has more clothing on. Made more noticeable as the male equivalent of the same exact set of armor in game makes them look like a walking Sherman tank by comparison.

However some have tried to show the ladies in kit that could actually be said to protect them from a barrage of arrow, namely with a breastplate that has stylized breasts on them. So instead of typical armor made for men that looks like this









We have armor that looks like this










The debate is on the believability/realism scale or realism/fantastical thing. Outside of a handful of cases, there were not a lot of known women warriors in the history books and the few that did exist were ok in Manish style. Some popular styles such as in Henry the 8th's day might have already been accommodating to a female build as a hourglass build was the fashion of the day. Even now, woman practitioners of FEMA, including one girl that won several sword fighting chamionships, done armor that does not look so different from their male counterparts save for a few minor adjustments needed for female anatomy. 

Personally I have been on both sides of the debate, but have been on the side of this style of breastplate simply because it doesn't make suspending my disbelief as difficult as say the Amazon armor in Xena (Xena's being ironically historically accurate as it probably wasn't must more different than the Greek Hoplite styles). 


However the crux of the debate comes in the following areas.

Problem 1. Ascetics
this is an easy win for the Fors, as just look at the ones aimed at guys. Style and fashion have enslaved men as much as anyone else over the millennia, as one can easily see by style of dress and hair. Armor was no different and some people preferred one style over another. While both German and Italian armor provided equal amounts of protection, one's preference for the looks meant which one was going to be bought.

There are Greek armor shaped like a muscular torso, so a stylized human build is not out of the question. The grooves are minor, with the style not weakened by the artsy bit to protect the wearer from an ax blow. 

There is also the case for the Cod pieces. Found on heavy infantrymen (the cod piece made riding a horse impossible for obvious reasons), at first glance as a modern person you might think they were like a cup. However they were an extension of men's fashion of the day (their underwear was a cod peice) and this was just there to show off, often by saying "I am the most well endowed stud here!" Over exaggeration was most likely at play and I suspect it was a big target for someone wielding a maul or warhammer at some time in history.

2. The safety of the wearer
This one might go for the against side, but there is debate on equal amounts. Until I can find someone that has tested this for sure, I am not sure where to stand.

Those that deal with arms and armor have always been in an arms race to make a weapon that can penetrate anything and armor that can withstand anything. Some weapons, namley those that did heavy blows like battle axes, or more blunt trauma like maces, warhammers, and flails, didn't even need to penetrate the armor; the force of impact alone was enough to break arm bones, or bruise a rib. That said by the time plate armor was popular, the breastplate could adequately protect you from that. 

Even back then, people realized we had alot of squishy bits that didn't like to be hurt in the torso so provided alot of protection there. Helmets may have been the first armor humans made, for obvious reasons but it didn't take long for torso protection to be a big thing.

but armor was at its best when it could deflect a blow. The reason alot of medieval armor was curved was for that reason. It could still take alot of abuse, armorers would show the proof of their work by shooting it point blank with a pistol before they sold it. But it was better if the blow glanced off, with most of the force with it. 
Even if the worse case scenario is you land on your back, you are on the ground. A fully armored knight could still get up quickly, no problem, but you were still vulnerable on the ground (why wrestling and Brazilian Jujitsu tries to get you on the ground ASAP). But if it slid off the curve you might wobble a bit but on your feet non the less.

The fear many have that are against this depiction of lady armor is that it gets deflected, but where does the weapon go? Some fear it might get funneled closer to the center of the chest. Like I said, I don't think penetration would be a problem, the front of the breastplate was very strong, and you also had padding to cushion  underneath the metal, and maybe even some mail (chainmail to most people) to fill in the gaps, so the halberd is not going through. But now its in a perfect spot to say stab you in the face. There would have been good head protection, but even that has gaps to be exploited. As Jill Bearup also points out, a pole arm needs a place to catch a rider on to drag them off their horse, and this style of armor might just give them that.

Even without that risk, there is the fact you are adding extra weight to it. As is, the plate armor already had to have an exagerated barrel chest to both deflect blows and allow for heavy breathing. Where it sat on the hips allowed it to ditribute the weight to said hips while also allowing enough segmentation for you to bend over. Even with most of the weight spread out, its still alot of weight and if they could cut back while still having the same protection they would have.


Again, I don't know if this has been tested or if it would be more likely to do this than say the pecks on Ancient Greek Officer armor. I am also wondering if size might make a difference. The indentation on the Hoplite example was minor, so small additions or cavities made in the armor wouldn't be that problematic...nor add too much extra weight to a set of armor that has "heavy" in its name. 


Another issue that has been brought up here and there is war is not a very pleasant thing to women, and all many or horrors are inflicted on them by soldiers of all sides. I don't want to go into too much detail, but letting everyone know you are a lady surrounded by enemy men that do not have the best intentions for you could be a problem.

3. What the guys were wearing was good enough.
Like I said, men are slaves to fashion too, and the ones that could afford to bedazzle their armor did so with regularity. Gambeson, quilted armor and the mostbasic, could easily fit around a person as would mail armor that you could put over it. The standard knightly full plate armor we think of when someone says knight also accommodating. The hourglass design was there to allow for heavy breathing in the heat of battle, so there was some room. I am sure depending on the build of the woman, she would have further accommodations made, but lets be honest: so would the guys. Armor was ofte custom made for the person wearing it, so unless you went out of your way to say "I am a woman under this" people probably wouldn't know at a first glance.


So thoughts, ideas, areas to improve this, or forgo this all together

[RAVENEYE]

Is there a question in here somewhere? Like, perhaps why you need this info to be correct or speculated upon? Research for a story, I'm guessing? And who is Jill Bearup and what has she to do with this topic, by the way?

I won't quibble over the sexist things I'm picking up on at this point, b/c it's so true that there's a horrible divide between how male armor is depicted in media (be it movies or games) and how female armor is depicted. Honestly that Skyrim screenshot up there is seriously modest and practical compared to other female armor out there.

So yeah, armor would've been designed to minimize impact/damage by weapons, and I would imagine that a breastplate with breasts molded on it for the benefit of a female would indeed cause a glancing blow to slip or snag differently than a flat-chested breastplate. The thing, though, that I believe modern folks fail to take into account is that because a breastplate would've been extremely heavy, especially during extended wear (extended being, what, an hour or two?) in which the woman was doing athletic things, the woman by necessity would be extremely fit. Extremely fit women generally do NOT have (how do I say this delicately? ) voluptuous breasts. Seen a woman who frequently runs marathons lately? So big-breasted women in the art, the movies, the games are usually generated by men who are dreaming a lie and getting a juvenile thrill on it.

During historical periods when people wore armor, large breasts were NOT desirable or fashionable among the upper classes. Girls were made to bind their chests so that they had small bosoms as adults. So I'm not sure (historically) if it would've made much difference if her armor was shaped for a flat chest or had extra room up top.

This being the case, a lot of the debate is moot, being conducted by modern people with modern expectations (and preferences) concerning female anatomy.

[saintofm]

Apr 5, 2023 15:58:58 GMT -6 RAVENEYE said:

Is there a question in here somewhere? Like, perhaps why you need this info to be correct or speculated upon? Research for a story, I'm guessing? And who is Jill Bearup and what has she to do with this topic, by the way?

I won't quibble over the sexist things I'm picking up on at this point, b/c it's so true that there's a horrible divide between how male armor is depicted in media (be it movies or games) and how female armor is depicted. Honestly that Skyrim screenshot up there is seriously modest and practical compared to other female armor out there.

So yeah, armor would've been designed to minimize impact/damage by weapons, and I would imagine that a breastplate with breasts molded on it for the benefit of a female would indeed cause a glancing blow to slip or snag differently than a flat-chested breastplate. The thing, though, that I believe modern folks fail to take into account is that because a breastplate would've been extremely heavy, especially during extended wear (extended being, what, an hour or two?) in which the woman was doing athletic things, the woman by necessity would be extremely fit. Extremely fit women generally do NOT have (how do I say this delicately? ) voluptuous breasts. Seen a woman who frequently runs marathons lately? So big-breasted women in the art, the movies, the games are usually generated by men who are dreaming a lie and getting a juvenile thrill on it.

During historical periods when people wore armor, large breasts were NOT desirable or fashionable among the upper classes. Girls were made to bind their chests so that they had small bosoms as adults. So I'm not sure (historically) if it would've made much difference if her armor was shaped for a flat chest or had extra room up top.

This being the case, a lot of the debate is moot, being conducted by modern people with modern expectations (and preferences) concerning female anatomy.

Just wanted to see people's views, and glean what I can, and maybe change my mind on a couple of things as it is still in the middle. The part of me that goes: yeah, this is begging to be a problem says no. On the other hand the part of me that sees most female armor goes: At least it might protect you from the elements...and staby stab time. THe latter usualy wining out as my suspense of disbelief doesn't have to run an Iron Man looking at it. 

Jill Bearup does some youtube videos on period costuming, rates them when depicted in film, and some LARP. 
Here is a link to her vid


www.youtube.com/@jillbearup

And yeah, you can tell this was written by a dude here. I forgot about the general build of a woman that is an athlete, and the more rigorous sports are not going to have a typical body. Breast are fat, they would be eaten up by well, the muscles and the exercise. And if they did have that build before a battle, considering how much weight someone can lose while hiking the Appalachian Mountains, I doubt they would stay that build for long (one battle after another, plus marching). There is an actual graph that shows the body types of Olympic athletes that fits your point perfectly I just remembered., While still an on a scale of 1-10 an out of my league, the women shown aren't the usual bombshells depicted in the movies. 

[RAVENEYE]

True, true. And thanks for the link. I bet her vids are interesting and really helpful.

I really wish our member penpen would return to comment on this thread. He does (or used to do) medieval combat training and, I believe, competition. He always had great advice and corrective feedback on the topic of armor (like the time he read one of my stories in which one soldier punches another in the gut, and PenPen said, "If they have gambesons on under/over the mail, a gut punch would be ineffective." a bit of advice I've never forgotten.). But he rarely visits the new site. Alas.

penpen, come back!   (I tagged him in case he does visit, so he'll see this)

[Bird]

Apr 6, 2023 8:27:51 GMT -6 RAVENEYE said:

True, true. And thanks for the link. I bet her vids are interesting and really helpful.

I really wish our member penpen would return to comment on this thread. He does (or used to do) medieval combat training and, I believe, competition. He always had great advice and corrective feedback on the topic of armor (like the time he read one of my stories in which one soldier punches another in the gut, and PenPen said, "If they have gambesons on under/over the mail, a gut punch would be ineffective." a bit of advice I've never forgotten.). But he rarely visits the new site. Alas.

penpen , come back!   (I tagged him in case he does visit, so he'll see this)

He's been deep in study as a neuro scientist. But gosh his advice on writing fight scenes was so helpful.

I am positive I read a study -- or at least an expert on medieval designs -- that showed how boob plate armor funnels attacks to the center of the chest. The best armor would be to not have boob plates at all, but just one curved front. I did a search, but search engines these days have gotten more and more useless (the tricks to searching like using quotes no longer works in google search. Yuck), but if I do find it again, I'll post it here.

As for aesthetics, I hate boob plates and scantily clad women fighters. Give them actual protective armor.

[Caulder Melhaire]

Everyone's hit on my opinions regarding boob plate LOL but the one that really gets me is the boob window. Or any kind of skin window (skindow? Ew.) really, but definitely the one right around one of the most vital areas. Get real.

Also any kind of full body armor that includes steel boots with a high heel. A HEEL?! While stomping around a grassy battlefield, slicked with dew and blood? That's just asking to have your balance and momentum suddenly and horribly altered at a critical moment. I wore platforms for a Halloween costume and almost broke my neck and ankle walking on flat wood. Unless you're training to fight in stilettos, in which case... I salute you.

I have a pinterest board dedicated to the exact type of armor that subverts this trope. And boy howdy, its tough to find art to fill it.

[saintofm]

Bird
Ascetics ticked me off at first too as I felt it was out of place. maybe I am just grown accustomed to it now, or see my reasoning with breastplate design in the last 2 posts. When it comes to scantily clad, as much as part of me likes the skin showing, it also takes me out of the suspension of disbelief unless both parties are equally like so (say like some male Forsworn/Briarheart and female Forsworn in SKyrim, and that armor being pitifully weak) This can be explained away by being a barbarian or gladiator thing, or they are suppose to be unarmored berserkers (Witch Elves in Warhammer Fantasy. Despite the Metal Bras, they had no armor and only have it in age of Sigmar as most units have at least 6 to the saves for dodging something) or most spellcasters (as they don't have alot of armor in most cases anyways).

It gets really noticeable when the boys and the girls have different attires for the same outfit (too many video game examples, or again using Warhammer Fantasy, the Dreadlord minis look like they could take a sword blow, but it took the Video Game Total War Warhammer II to get a Dreadlady in actual armor but to not have her look like a runaway slave girl). I am to believe this Legendary armor is to protect me from a Ogre wielding a giant maul, it and the last 6 sets worn at once couldn't keep my character warm in a gentle breeze?

Caulder Melhaire Melhaire
eesh, I Completely forgot about cleavage windows and combat stilettos. Both out of place. Its one thing again sorceress as I can say magic, but I still don't understand High Heels even today (yes, I know men wore them first, but the first ones had the same look and purpose as Cowboy Boots: They were there to keep you in the saddle). The whole women in high heels doing action stuff (say like running from a T-Rex) is all about the idea of keeping women glamorous at all times. People cry realism in fiction or I could never date a girl with makeup on IRL but the moment a lady doesn't have makeup or a pushup bra they yell heresy like it 40k. Either cowboy boot style or something more practice please.

And then there is the boob window. Yeah, as much as I like the orc armor in Skyrim this one makes my disbelief crashing through the floor. Armor is there to keep you safe and this is begging for an arrow to find your heart, and it won't be from a cute winged baby.

[saintofm]

@tglassy

Also Hotblooded male that also likes a the B's of Hollywood (boobs, butts, and blood). You want me to laugh, put on Desert Punk or Animal House, and you have me in a good mood fast. Nor have I ever said sex and sensuality was unnatural or disgusting. And I am glad you don't have as much problems with suspending your disbelief. He is my problems those. I don't think anyone here has said or implied either of these statements. But your argument...here is where I get to poke some holes.

1. Believability I think is more important than realism. The more believable something is, dragons, fairies, magic, ray guns, hot alien space babes that want to learn about this strange human concept called....love; if they act like how animals or people are suppose to act I am less likely to think: I am consuming a piece of fiction. I know its not real, its fiction, but the same things that can pull you out of something that is supposedly meant to be a real event that happened or is happening when the piece of media was released.

Take a look at Knights Tale staring the late Heath Ledger. Alot of what goes on is more modern Sports Culture than medieval (more specifically American Sports Culture from the Wave, to the Nike Symbols on the armor, to the hero's armor having designs more reminiscent of a football player's gear in places). But how it takes these drastically different elements and mixes them together works perfectly.

I have a friend I made while I lived in Idaho near Rexburg. He served as one of the bomb squad guys in the army. He has some problems with Avengers because it does trigger his PTSD, but still enjoys it. On the other hand he can't look at The Hurt Locker without yelling "You Idiot" because of what the protagonists does throughout the whole film. The guy that owned the Magic the Gathering and Warhammer likewise didn't like alot of war movies for the same reason; he and his wife were in areas wear people shot at them and they had their brothers and sisters in arms die around them. They may have been civilians for yeas, but they still think army enough to go: You idiot every time they watch Black Hawk Down or another like movie.

Or say the big battle that even got Twilight haters on board at the end of Breaking Dawn, and what happened soon after that gt everyone yelling some variation of "what the hell" or something more colorful.

Or on the topic of all things sexy, one of the greatest groups of detractors from 50 Shades of Grey were those that partook in BDSM at all lovels. Why? Because the books and later films equated being a broken person was the only way to enjoy this; and it equated an abusive relationship with this form of foreplay. What little of S&M I know at least has two things: Consent is Sacrosanct, which the previously mentioned franchise is questionable about at best, and after care both for the S and the M as one may have taken serious damage, and as much as the other likes to inflict pain they do not want to harm their partner and it could freak them out how far they were willing to go. Another area the franchise negated to have.

THe skimpy sexy armor does that for me. If I wanted a sexy get up I play something that was meant to be lightly armored like Barbarian, Monk, Rouge, most casters, and the like. If I am playing a fighter or a paladin, I want my armor to look like armor.


2. Sex Sells. I get it. There is a reason 99.999999% of fighting game females are meant to be drop dead Gorgeous (and I will not take anything less than a 9/10 for my Mileena). Its also why most romance novels has someone built like Chriss Evens and not Larry the Cable Guy on the cover, and why every girl in my school (even those ones) had a crush on Jack Sparrow, Legolas, and The Phantom of the Opera in that order. But it is a double edge sword.


Much like violence, too much, or the wrong intensity and it looses its impact. The flair is gone. The spectacle is no longer there. Something that would have gotten a "OH YELL YEAHHH" now gets a "meh". ANd thus power creep happens and we need to escalate things till they loose all meaning. But when done at the right moments, at the right time, it can maximum impact. Think of it like your favorite food. Every once in a while, FOOD OF THE GODS! Every day, its "meh" or you have to go on a higharched (say Friench Fries. McDonalds and my old High School have terrible fries, In-N-Out slightly better, Wendy's better than that, Burger King Better than That, I like KFC Potato Wedges and Seasoned Fries, and so on).

Here are a couple examples of ones that do it right and wrong.

Path To Nowhere.
It uses very attractive characters, most downright sexy. Zoya is Dom Mommy for a reason for a lot of players. But despite the decent acting, music (metal head here), graphics, gameplay, and story the advertisement focused either soley on the fact the ladies were hot (which there are pesso a dozen out there that fit that description) or adversities features that implied there was going to be some kinky sexy time (features that were A. not in the game, and B. a Little on the SA side of things, which is not part of the game at all thank heaven). But how many players were turned off by this because it looked like every other shovelware game like Herowars out there?

Or Dragon Age: Origins. It handles sex well enough. Morigan, though naive on how to act in society, dresses the way she does to both flaunt her body and she knows enough about men to know distracted by sexy is a thing. The actual sex scenes? While the music is nice, that is about it. They are so laughable following games just have a little bit of foreplay beforehand, and maybe a cutscene with the after-sex glow (my personal favorite is one featuring Iron Bull and three people bulge in while he is naked on the bed, and only the Inquisitor is blocking his girth. Hilarity ensues).

Heck, while I have not played the Ergo (Porn) games that the Fate series is adapted from, they stayed popular and some cases superior to the gorgeous looking anime they inspire because they had a lot more solid stuff to it than cheesecake.

Done right, you feel like you want to read, watch, or play this part over and over again. Done wrong, and you have the scene from the movie version of Bloodrayne. The look of her (sans ribbons in hair) but none of the heart of our favorite Dahmpir.

I am not saying you can't enjoy something for the crass over sexed part of it, or I couldn't laugh beginning to end watching animal house. But again, if I want that I want it on my terms, and having it shoved in my face when it feels unearned, unwanted, or lacking any taste.

3. this is not a matter of controlling animal urges. I am not typing this in a jail sell for 25 to life because of that. People that deserved to be punched have not been punched, and my face lacks any slap marks from pretty ladies due to me speaking what was going through my head. This is, admittingly enough, a matter of taste. Tastes are different. You may like Broccoli, I can't stand the taste of it and I have learned to like every other vegetable I was forced to eat.

But its a bunch of little details, that on their own, are harmless but once they add up loose it.


4. Calling it Make Beleive and fiction, sorry dude, but I have to call you out on this one. That is like the excuse some gamers take when the usual suspects bring up Violence in Video Games while holding pitchforks and torches. Yes, its just a game. Its just a book. Its just tv show. Its just a movie. And the Mona Lisa is just a punch of paint on a solid wooden board. The Lord of the Rings is just some words printed on a bunch of paper. Cowboy Bebop is just some animation with people talking over it. Rocky is a bunch of moving pictures. Tiffa is just a bunch of 1's and 0's.

While true, there are more important things in life and focusing on any one of these areas to something like makeing sure you can survive another day is self destructive, and only have meaning we put into them. On the other hand we do put meaning into them, and that makes them impactful. It gives us Catharsis.

[havekrillwhaletravel]

Apr 6, 2023 11:41:08 GMT -6 Caulder Melhaire said:

Everyone's hit on my opinions regarding boob plate LOL but the one that really gets me is the boob window. Or any kind of skin window (skindow? Ew.) really, but definitely the one right around one of the most vital areas. Get real.

Also any kind of full body armor that includes steel boots with a high heel. A HEEL?! While stomping around a grassy battlefield, slicked with dew and blood? That's just asking to have your balance and momentum suddenly and horribly altered at a critical moment. I wore platforms for a Halloween costume and almost broke my neck and ankle walking on flat wood. Unless you're training to fight in stilettos, in which case... I salute you.

I have a pinterest board dedicated to the exact type of armor that subverts this trope. And boy howdy, its tough to find art to fill it.

"Skindow" ...

You might be interested in the art on the subreddit r/ReasonableFantasy.

Also, I'm a dip because until this thread, I never questioned boots with heels in fantasy media. Like, of COURSE that'd be an awful time for everyone involved.

I'm now imagining an isekai anime, which takes place in an alternate world where everyone - including soldiers - wear stilettos. Everyone's wobbling around the battlefield, being terribly inefficient. But it's accepted as part of the soldiering experience, like not showering for weeks and dying of dysentery. Then the main character on our world gets transported there, and she's the fastest, most agile, most balanced warrior that world has ever seen.

Her secret? Sneakers.

That Time I Got Reincarnated into Another World in my Adidas.

[Caulder Melhaire]

Apr 8, 2023 20:32:38 GMT -6 havekrillwhaletravel said:

Apr 6, 2023 11:41:08 GMT -6 Caulder Melhaire said:

Everyone's hit on my opinions regarding boob plate LOL but the one that really gets me is the boob window. Or any kind of skin window (skindow? Ew.) really, but definitely the one right around one of the most vital areas. Get real.

Also any kind of full body armor that includes steel boots with a high heel. A HEEL?! While stomping around a grassy battlefield, slicked with dew and blood? That's just asking to have your balance and momentum suddenly and horribly altered at a critical moment. I wore platforms for a Halloween costume and almost broke my neck and ankle walking on flat wood. Unless you're training to fight in stilettos, in which case... I salute you.

I have a pinterest board dedicated to the exact type of armor that subverts this trope. And boy howdy, its tough to find art to fill it.

"Skindow" ...

You might be interested in the art on the subreddit r/ReasonableFantasy.

Also, I'm a dip because until this thread, I never questioned boots with heels in fantasy media. Like, of COURSE that'd be an awful time for everyone involved.

I'm now imagining an isekai anime, which takes place in an alternate world where everyone - including soldiers - wear stilettos. Everyone's wobbling around the battlefield, being terribly inefficient. But it's accepted as part of the soldiering experience, like not showering for weeks and dying of dysentery. Then the main character on our world gets transported there, and she's the fastest, most agile, most balanced warrior that world has ever seen.

Her secret? Sneakers.

That Time I Got Reincarnated into Another World in my Adidas.

That is my new favorite subreddit, but oh my GOD I'm cracking up because I would 100% watch that anime.  

[saintofm]

Thanks for the replies. Sorry if this was the last straw for the one poster, didn't mean for him to get the ban hammer. Definitely leaning more on the side of none or modestly small like the one picture with the real person in it.

Yeah, as was mentioned a few times before, and even once by me, I do not get the combat high heels. They are about as functional as a screen door on a submarine. If they were in the style of riding boots, yes. Cowboy boots, like all boots designed for riding horses, have a fat heel. While being on the march would be tough if they were on foot, they were designed to keep the rider on the horse so less of a problem if they are constantly riding.

That said, I have to wonder the useability in say the worst terrain out there. Bad weather is a thing, especially in areas that made frequent use of heavy armor.

[RAVENEYE]

Apr 10, 2023 0:01:31 GMT -6 saintofm said:

Yeah, as was mentioned a few times before, and even once by me, I do not get the combat high heels. They are about as functional as a screen door on a submarine. If they were in the style of riding boots, yes. Cowboy boots, like all boots designed for riding horses, have a fat heel. While being on the march would be tough if they were on foot, they were designed to keep the rider on the horse so less of a problem if they are constantly riding.

That said, I have to wonder the useability in say the worst terrain out there. Bad weather is a thing, especially in areas that made frequent use of heavy armor.

It would a fun challenge to go about creating armor for one's fantasy world that reeeeally took the local terrain into account. Like snowy cultures going to war in shoeshoes with weapon spikes on the toes. And swamp cultures going to war with shoes on stilts or being pulled behind magical boats on war-skis. 

LOL, that would be sweet.

(And no need to apologize. People get themselves into trouble.)

[RAVENEYE]

Oh, hey! I was driving my hubby to the airport this morning when this song came over the radio, which made me laugh b/c it so perfect for this thread. Until I heard this a few months back, I never thought I'd hear "big boobs" in the chorus of a song. It's brilliant:





Edit: Since this was a great discussion to begin with, I'm going to split out the toxic off-topic stuff that invaded and move it to the Arena (and the responses to it), if anyone wants to  continue to engage those particular points. That way, the rest of us can continue with the regular discussion in a calm, orderly fashion.

Alatariel - if you want to repost the bottom portion of your response (post-setdeletedmemberstraight), please do so, cuz it goes great here.

[saintofm]

We have medieval and renaissance armor down. What about sci-fi? Probably more of the same.

Flack Jackets are fairly unisex, and say Dirt Bike riding gear is made for practicality and not looks to best keep you from gettng scratched up on a bad fall (there is concrete hard dirt and rocks around where people like to take off road bikes, and it needs to protectagainst such things so you don't look like you slid off a cheese grater.

The first scifi thing that comes to mind is of course Warhammer 40,000.

Dark Eldar don't bother me as they are suppose to make Cenobites cringe. Most warriors look interchangeable, and maybe some warriors have some modest boob plate, but they also have razor blades in there to keep them excited on the battlefield, and they heal their dead and wounded by impaling them on the raiding vessels, so there is that.

THe Wych Cults are not supposed to be armored anyway, so any fantasy esk armor they do have on is either on the level of gladiators (which they are) or its called fashion, darling.
Can't say the same about the Craft Worlders.

The aspect of the Screaming Banshee, an all female one, tend to have the same dimensions as say the Ebony armor up top. Models equally so. A melee troop , I can see maybe an excuse by having a super lightweight material being they were advance when the T-Rex ruled the Earth, BUTT still means a chainsword might get channeled to that pretty face of theirs. Then again, their shrieks are meant to paralyzed their foes, so it could also be a "come and get me if you dare."

Tau tend to not differentiate between the sexes, outside of some aspects of the fan art world, so Fire Warriors are not going to be a problem.

And of course, the Empire of Man. Lets be honest, the Sisters of Battle were the first thing I thought of. This group here.




Like Space Marines, they are in powered armor, wielding machineguns that shoot rocket powered grenades and entering the melee with chainsaw swords. Supposedly the boobplate and corset design was meant to show off their femininity (The state sanctioned church was not allowed to have men at arms, so got around that by having women). Yes the guy that started using them was corrupt as heck, but this is 40K. The closest we have to good guys are: Space Romans (Ultra Marines),Space Vikings (Space Wolves), Space Vampires (Crimson Angels), guys with red eyes and thing for flamethrowers (Salamanders, and legitimately the nicest people you will ever meet in setting), Space Ogres (Ogryn, and they are ALL himbos: Little of brain, big of heart, and they can punt you if they think you hurt their friends). 

Probably the most realistic armor would be the Imperial Guard as depictions of men and women are in the same style of flack jackets. 

[Caulder Melhaire]

It occurs to me, on the topic of Sci-Fi, Mass Effect - though it is one of my favorite series of all time, still - falls victim to the same trope:





It's interesting to think about in a different genre, because we're trading in the swords and arrows for... bullets and lasers and a variety of sci-fi powers (at least in the ME universe, that's where I'm basing this rambling on).  They do have the Omni-Blade, but that seems to be wielded more like a wristblade for stabbing.  So you don't have to worry about the architecture funneling a long blade betwixt the bahoongahanas...  does sci-fi have a better justification for it than fantasy, actually?   Like most space suits in these games seem to be skin (and sometimes I'd swear bone) tight, so in that sense, a boob plate would maybe be a little more acceptable, so that body parts aren't getting smashed by the tight plating.  Granted, they could still do a blockier casing, like MShep has there in the second pic. 

And from the same franchise, the Justicar, Samara, straight up devours the Boob Window trope with a full-on cleavage split down her armor.  On the one hand, she is a devastatingly powerful biotic.  On the other, I don't recall her ever being able to use a barrier like others of her class.  So stray bullets are still an issue as far as the wide open window trope is concerned.