Genre Discussion: Romance and other love stories

[saintofm]

Outside a lot of my area of interest but dabble here and there. But this should be the start of a genre discussion as people go to different genres for different reasons. I want a sword and sandal film like the good Ben Hur for a different reason than I want Princess Bride. Despite both having monsters, I watch Hellsing and Pokemon for different reasons. Genres tell you what to expect, and from there try to live up to those expectations, try to be better, or fail absolutely. 

But when it comes to the romance genera, how does it work, how to screw it up, and the different sub genres.

Listening to Jenna Moreci (Writing Youtuber, wrote the Savior's Champion and that series) a lot, I know it has to have a meet cute, two people fall in love, some stuff in between making it stronger or tearing it apart, and has to have a happy ending. 

If it has a sad ending say like Romeo and Juliet, its a Tragedy.

It does not have to have sex, though that is a component to many romances real and otherwise. If Sex is a requirement its called Erotica, and that doesn't need love...just horny. 


And then there are subgenres, which I don't know all of them. Mix and match to your pleasure. But from what I know so far: 

Historical Romance: A romance set in the past. Many become this over time, but many were contemporary in their time. Today this includes things like Pride and Prejudice, Ever After, and Pearl Harbor (I didn't say they were all good).

Paranormal Romance: A romance that has some horror or supernatural elements such as witchcraft, monsters, and the like. Think True Blood, Shape of Water, and Chocolate.

Thoughts and areas to emulate, drop like its hot, and improve.

Dark Romance: To paraphrase Jenna Moreci when I asked if the abuse is a bug or a feature in one of her writing live streams (which has 20 minutes sprints and Q&A in-between with 2 of her writing friends): Is a feature. There is usually an unhealthy relationship be it physical abuse, stalking, emotional abuse, kidnapping, torture, questionable consent at best, and more. This is not to say S&M falls in this, as consent and making sure you don't go so far as to cause actual physical and emotional harm is all part of the give and take (with the Sub having technically the Controle in fun bits as they say go harder, softer, stop and more). A Dark Romance would not care. 365 days would count, and happens on accident a whole lot such as with 50shades of Grey (E.L. James thinks she wrote a love story not something that should be a cautionary tale). 

[Alatariel]

Jan 16, 2024 13:19:57 GMT -6 saintofm said:

Outside a lot of my area of interest but dabble here and there. But this should be the start of a genre discussion as people go to different genres for different reasons. I want a sword and sandal film like the good Ben Hur for a different reason than I want Princess Bride. Despite both having monsters, I watch Hellsing and Pokemon for different reasons. Genres tell you what to expect, and from there try to live up to those expectations, try to be better, or fail absolutely. 

But when it comes to the romance genera, how does it work, how to screw it up, and the different sub genres.

Listening to Jenna Moreci (Writing Youtuber, wrote the Savior's Champion and that series) a lot, I know it has to have a meet cute, two people fall in love, some stuff in between making it stronger or tearing it apart, and has to have a happy ending. 

If it has a sad ending say like Romeo and Juliet, its a Tragedy.

It does not have to have sex, though that is a component to many romances real and otherwise. If Sex is a requirement its called Erotica, and that doesn't need love...just horny. 


And then there are subgenres, which I don't know all of them. Mix and match to your pleasure. But from what I know so far: 

Historical Romance: A romance set in the past. Many become this over time, but many were contemporary in their time. Today this includes things like Pride and Prejudice, Ever After, and Pearl Harbor (I didn't say they were all good).

Paranormal Romance: A romance that has some horror or supernatural elements such as witchcraft, monsters, and the like. Think True Blood, Shape of Water, and Chocolate.

Thoughts and areas to emulate, drop like its hot, and improve.

Dark Romance: To paraphrase Jenna Moreci when I asked if the abuse is a bug or a feature in one of her writing live streams (which has 20 minutes sprints and Q&A in-between with 2 of her writing friends): Is a feature. There is usually an unhealthy relationship be it physical abuse, stalking, emotional abuse, kidnapping, torture, questionable consent at best, and more. This is not to say S&M falls in this, as consent and making sure you don't go so far as to cause actual physical and emotional harm is all part of the give and take (with the Sub having technically the Controle in fun bits as they say go harder, softer, stop and more). A Dark Romance would not care. 365 days would count, and happens on accident a whole lot such as with 50shades of Grey (E.L. James thinks she wrote a love story not something that should be a cautionary tale). 

Romance is one of my genres so I can elaborate on all these points if you'd like.

There are MANY sub-genres to romance and an HEA (happily ever after) is generally required, but not always. As you said, there is Dark Romance, which is very popular. Dark romance *is not* about abusing the love interest. It can involve dark topics like stalking, human trafficking, torture, various extreme kinks, questionable consent, and so on with MANY content warnings so people don't go into it thinking they're reading a fluffly rom-com. (EL James is not dark romance, her books are just very badly written something-or-other.)

Having sex scenes in a romance book does NOT make it erotica. Many people have that misconception. Erotica is a completely separate genre. Talk to an erotica author, they'll set you straight (not you specifically, the general you). There can be many, many sex scenes in a romance novel and still not be erotica. Erotica is not porn, either. Seriously, we used to have an erotica author on the old Legendfire and she was always happy to educate folks on her chosen genre and the misconceptions surrounding it.

Romance, as a genre, does have a set structure and set expectations. If a reader picks up a romance an HEA is expected and if there isn't one the reader will feel betrayed. If there is not an HEA, the book is typically NOT categorized as strictly "romance". It would fall under a sub-genre or it could be "women's fiction" which makes me annoyed, honestly. But that's a whole different topic....

What questions did you have about romance? Not only do I read the genre as a whole, but I write it.

[saintofm]

General chat/discussion for now, but basically what makes it work or not work. At what point am I dealing with a script for the Hallmark Channel?

[Alatariel]

Jan 16, 2024 21:37:01 GMT -6 saintofm said:

General chat/discussion for now, but basically what makes it work or not work. At what point am I dealing with a script for the Hallmark Channel?

 I love that.

I've definitely read some bad romance, some cliched romance, some corny romance...and some absolutely FANTASTIC romance that both heals and warms the heart. There's a time and place for Hallmark-esque romance.

If you ask romance readers: what makes the genre work? You'll get a ton of mixed answers. I hate dark romance, so you'll hear from me that I hate literally everything that makes a book considered "dark romance". I think it's particularly badly written, though, and many readers of that sub-genre don't notice because they just want as much shock and kink as possible. However, you do need a plot. I see a lot of requests for "all the trigger warnings with a good plot and good characters". There's a big deficiency of those things in dark romance. Authors think they can get away with writing garbage with smut and no one will care or notice, but that's not the case. Buuuuuuut...it'll still become massively popular. It's a weird contradictory world. Nikki St. Crow, H.D Carlton, Emily McIntyre, Penelope Douglas, all of them are huge dark romance bestsellers but their books are SO BADLY WRITTEN. I cannot understand the appeal, but whatever.

On the opposite side: clean (aka "sweet") christian romance is also hugely popular and very crappily written most of the time. There's just such a massive demand for it and readers consume books at such a rapid rate they almost don't care about the quality. Yes they notice when a book is lacking in some way, but they'll read it anyways.

For me: I need characters that seem like real and mature adults, the conflict between the two love interests must be believable and not contrived just for the plot, and there cannot be ANY stupid miscommunication tropes. If an issue can be solved with one quick conversation then it must happen quickly or else I'll stop reading and return the e-book on my kindle. I do like spice, but it's not necessary for me to enjoy a romance book. I like witty banter, but not if it feels forced or like it's trying too hard to be clever. 

My favorite authors for romance are:

- Emily Henry (I highly recommend her if you are new to the genre and just wanna dip a toe into it, she writes such great complex and mature characters with a little spice but nothing graphic, I adored Book Lovers.)
- Pippa Grant (she writes hilarious romantic comedies with ridiculously flawed characters, but somehow always manages to touch my heart and I find myself in awe of how many emotions I feel while reading her books. I will laugh so hard I cry and also feel warmth, sadness, grief...)
- Kathryn Nolan (great diverse characters, absolutely real conflicts between mature adults like having two completely different careers that are incompatible and how do you compromise on your life goals in order to make a relationship work, plus she has GREAT spicy scenes. More graphic that Emily Henry so proceed with caution if that's not your thing. But they're well done and always consensual and full of lovely moments of connection)
- Claire Kingsley (she does a great job of writing realistic characters in vivid settings like quirky small towns while weaving in an over-arching suspense/mystery plot. Plus spice.)

[saintofm]

Jan 23, 2024 12:51:34 GMT -6 Alatariel said:

Jan 16, 2024 21:37:01 GMT -6 saintofm said:

General chat/discussion for now, but basically what makes it work or not work. At what point am I dealing with a script for the Hallmark Channel?

 I love that.

I've definitely read some bad romance, some cliched romance, some corny romance...and some absolutely FANTASTIC romance that both heals and warms the heart. There's a time and place for Hallmark-esque romance.

If you ask romance readers: what makes the genre work? You'll get a ton of mixed answers. I hate dark romance, so you'll hear from me that I hate literally everything that makes a book considered "dark romance". I think it's particularly badly written, though, and many readers of that sub-genre don't notice because they just want as much shock and kink as possible. However, you do need a plot. I see a lot of requests for "all the trigger warnings with a good plot and good characters". There's a big deficiency of those things in dark romance. Authors think they can get away with writing garbage with smut and no one will care or notice, but that's not the case. Buuuuuuut...it'll still become massively popular. It's a weird contradictory world. Nikki St. Crow, H.D Carlton, Emily McIntyre, Penelope Douglas, all of them are huge dark romance bestsellers but their books are SO BADLY WRITTEN. I cannot understand the appeal, but whatever.

On the opposite side: clean (aka "sweet") christian romance is also hugely popular and very scrappily written most of the time. There's just such a massive demand for it and readers consume books at such a rapid rate they almost don't care about the quality. Yes they notice when a book is lacking in some way, but they'll read it anyways.

For me: I need characters that seem like real and mature adults, the conflict between the two love interests must be believable and not contrived just for the plot, and there cannot be ANY stupid miscommunication tropes. If an issue can be solved with one quick conversation then it must happen quickly or else I'll stop reading and return the e-book on my kindle. I do like spice, but it's not necessary for me to enjoy a romance book. I like witty banter, but not if it feels forced or like it's trying too hard to be clever. 

My favorite authors for romance are:

- Emily Henry (I highly recommend her if you are new to the genre and just wanna dip a toe into it, she writes such great complex and mature characters with a little spice but nothing graphic, I adored Book Lovers.)
- Pippa Grant (she writes hilarious romantic comedies with ridiculously flawed characters, but somehow always manages to touch my heart and I find myself in awe of how many emotions I feel while reading her books. I will laugh so hard I cry and also feel warmth, sadness, grief...)
- Kathryn Nolan (great diverse characters, absolutely real conflicts between mature adults like having two completely different careers that are incompatible and how do you compromise on your life goals in order to make a relationship work, plus she has GREAT spicy scenes. More graphic that Emily Henry so proceed with caution if that's not your thing. But they're well done and always consensual and full of lovely moments of connection)
- Claire Kingsley (she does a great job of writing realistic characters in vivid settings like quirky small towns while weaving in an over-arching suspense/mystery plot. Plus spice.)





Going to Paraphrase from a video Phil the Conquistadork did on Christian Video games as he felt Christian Films had the same problem, and Christian films have: Either its from people of not the faith doing a quick cash grab (as in the case with a lot of Christian Video games) or done by people who think the messege is more important than the craft of getting it across (the film industry). Here is a link. 



The former is expected, the latter is just sad. Religion in general has used all the arts and the genres found within to get a message across beautifully, and literature is no different. Sometimes a Christan wants a romance that fits their religious doctrin as well, and sucks when you don't have it. And if you are not of the faith, well you can just enjoy it for its literary qualities, or the qualities of the genre. Not everything has to be a work of pure art; it can be made for the fun of it. Its why we had Pulp. 


As for bad writing getting popular: Yeah, I don't get it. There wasn't a better novel that touched on broken men with a kink on the market than 50 Shades?
Also how common is the romantic option of these books a total tool like Grey?


 Other more pleasent Questions: Are there any good ones that involce an Asexual charecter? Strait, and my persoanl experriance with Ace people has been 1 friend a bunch of youtubers I am fans of (Professor Otaku2, Red and Blue on Overly Sarcastic Productions, Jema Moraci, Fionappollo, Maven of Vampire Reviews; the latter is also an author i have to check out). Each of them ran the gauntlet of Meh, Have an astetic of beuty they like but sex adverse, Romantically lean one way or another on the romnance spectrum but otherse don't get anything out of sex. Funnily enough Jenna's Savior's Champion and the series that goes into that has lots of spice despite being Ace.

I ask as I am anything but that, so want to get into the head of someone that is, specifically a Demisexual (I still forget all the letters in the pride flag, so no ally here, but what I understand is they need to have a firm connection with someone before they think of them in a romantic fashion). And the scene that comes out in my head is an big fight scene wth ray guns and bullets flying everywhere, things exploding, the worst possible time to confess one's love and the protagonist goes: 

I think I love you.
Love interest: What?"
I love you!
I thought you didn't do the love thing?"
I think I have a you thing!
That's great, lets talk about it when people arn't trying to murder us?
Do you know how long that will take knowing us?


The last question in my head would be with another story idea. Protagonist befriends someone that has gone though some rough times (say really bad abuse survivor, and what not), and is helping them cope with the past trauma, but is slowl falling in love. However they are afriad that if they are more than friends it will frighten them because of the past nightmarish situations they were in. Where would this fit in the romance spectrum of genre?

[Alatariel]

saintofm oh yes, there are a bunch of good romance books (and fantasy books with a romance sub-plot) with asexual, demisexual, or graysexual characters in the forefront. The first one that comes to mind is The Charm Offensive (demi and ace representation). Other good ones are:

Loveless by Alice Oseman
Meet Cute Diary by Emery Lee
The Reckless Kind by Carly Heath
The Circus Infinite by Khan Wong
The Bruising of Qilwa by Naseem Jamnia
The Romantic Agenda by Claire Kann
The Lady’s Guide to Petticoats and Piracy by Mackenzi Lee
Vicious/Vengeful duology by V.E Schwab