Deep POV--Lesson 1.5 To Italicize or Not to Italicize

[ScienceGirl]

In the final installment of chapter 1 lessons, we will cover italic thought vs. non-italic thought. Ask fifty people and you'll get fifty answers about what is best. Nelson clears this up by talking about "direct thought quotations" and the random thoughts going through the character's mind. In other words, she makes a distinction between those random subconscious thoughts that the character is having but not really paying attention to (Deep POV thoughts) and the purposeful thoughts that could also work as speech. 

A lot of famous, established authors do not follow these guidelines. Here's an example from David Baldacci's Absolute Power. The main character, Luther, has broken into a house and someone else (not the owners) is entering. In this scenario, Luther witnesses a crime.

For one ironic instant Luther debated whether the home was to be burgled twice on the same night.

But he's David Baldacci. He's written so many books now that he probably dreams them into existence. He writes against deadlines and follows that thriller template format that sells hundreds of thousands of novels. He fills his books with info dumps and passive voice to reach word counts on time. We peons do not have the great fortune to do so LOL.

Consider the same line in deep POV. The character 1) does some kind of action, even if it's not elaborate. 2) He delivers the thought as a question, not italicized.

Luther froze. Was the home to be burgled twice on the same night? 

In a later chapter, a different character, Gloria, is investigating the crime. 

She pushed past him and then stopped. Her first thought was to run back out, down the stairs, into the limo, out of there, out of the state, out of the miserable country. She wasn't sorry for Christy Sullivan, who'd wanted to get screwed by the president. That had been her goal for the last two years. Well, sometimes you don't get what you want; sometimes you get a lot more.

We get Gloria's actions, and then thoughts that are not written in deep POV, but could be followed by a deep POV thought. And then, that last line is someting Gloria could either think to herself or think directed at Christy Sullivan. 

Rewriting with the deep POV and italicized thought:

She pushed past him and then stopped. She should run back out, down the stairs, into the limo, out of there, out of the state, out of the miserable country. She wasn't sorry for Christy Sullifan who'd wanted to get screwed by the president. That had been her goal for the last two years. Well, sometimes you don't get what you want; sometimes you get a lot more.

See how the italics changes things? Suddenly it's clear that Gloria is taking a cheap shot at the recently-murdered Christy. It says a lot about Gloria's character and intensifies the scene.

Here's a second example from Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

Her excerpt does include use of deep POV (in green)

While Mrs. Dursley was in the bathroom, Mr. Dursley crept to the bedroom window and peered down into the front garden. The cat was still there. It was staring down Privet drive as though it was waiting for something. (side note... this is terrible example of passive voice with overuse of was for the verb! Again, famous people can do what they want LOL)

Was he imagining things? Could all this have anything to do with the Potters? If it did... if it got out that they were related to a pair of--well, he didn't think he could bear it.

Now, consider that last bit if she'd written it as italicized thought. 

While Mrs. Dursley was in the bathroom, Mr. Dursley crept to the bedroom window and peered down into the front garden. The cat was still there. It was staring down Privet drive as though it was waiting for something. 


Was he imagining things? Could all this have anything to do with the Potters? If it did... if it got out that they were related to a pair of--well... I cannot bear it.

Notice the switch of POV in this thought. Since it's his direct thought, it wouldn't be He couldn't bear it. It would be delivered as if Dursley had spoken the line aloud.

In summary: Deep POV random thoughts get no italics and direct thoughts get italics.  

Challenge:

Find some examples in your favorite novels where the authors have "gotten away" with lazy, passive writing and improve their scenes with a combination of deep POV and italicized thoughts. Be brave and share them in this thread!

[pelwrath]

I will and from my book. I thought a mistake was made when uploaded as what I had in italics was no longer in italics. I was ready to delay its release as this happened almost totally in the book.
So far nobody has mentioned it in the two reviews it’s received.

[pelwrath]

Here are the first two pages of my book. The way I had it before upload. When uploaded all the italics disappeared

Ashland, Ohio

Agate watched the brick and slate Cape Cod from some bushes on the side of the house. The gabled eaves, styled shutters, gray brick walls, and second-story back deck. Oh, what a facade you created, you evil son of a bitch.

The front door opened. Three women carrying cleaning supplies left saying thank you to a man with a beard: Mike Dunbar. The women climbed into a van decorated in bold print: “The Minute Maids. Always glad to squeeze you in.” As they drove away, Mike closed the door. Agate checked her watch, 5:15 pm.
In over four hundred years, I've killed, stolen, lied and a host of other things I’m not proud of. I've never killed for pleasure! You call it hunting. Now, you're the hunted.

The garage door opened and a Ford Transit with a luggage carrier pulled out. Mike Dunbar leaving on his annual camping and trapping expedition at the nearby Funk Bottom Wildlife Area. Agate looked at the approaching dark sky and smiled. Large raindrops started falling about an hour later. Shakespeare ain't got nothing on the tempest I'll be!

Agate waited to see if the approaching storm changed Mike’s plans. It didn't. The young trees that lined the street to Dunbar's house, bent to the wind. A garbage can tumbled past, subject to the errant gusts. Then the deluge came. Noah would have felt at home. Neither rain nor wind mattered to Agate. She ignored the discomfort of her silver-streaked, chestnut hair, as it matted to her neck. The water trickled into her London Fog trench coat. Agate strode to a tall pine tree in Mike's backyard, her Harley Davidson boots squishing through the water-soaked ground. She leaned against the tree’s trunk and started pushing, her heart beating faster, her breathing becoming heavier, as she continued to push. She laughed upon feeling the sting of sweat run into her eye, amid the driving rain. Her boots made small furrows in the soaked ground, yet she was rewarded for her effort; the base of the pine tree moved. Its roots loosened and the surrounding dirt gathered in clumps away from the base, making it easier to move. A strong gust almost caused her to slip. Agate grabbed a low branch to steady herself. With a powerful shove, the wet ground finally lost its hold and roots began breaking as they emerged from the ground. The tree toppled onto the deck; the sound of breaking glass heard over the boom from a nearby lightning bolt.
Hope you don’t have a cut-rate insurance company. Agate smirked and with the grace of a panther, jumped onto the tree trunk. Mike, you’re a pathetic excuse for a vampire. She stepped through the branches and onto the deck, crunching broken glass beneath her boots. I'd never let a wet behind the ears piece of shit like you bring me to your version of hell! I saw that Jubilea Simbolo pin at last year’s alumni dinner. You, Traditionalists, are twisted and evil, the worst traits of vampires and humans. Your fellow Traditionalists killed my mother and caused my daughter immense pain. Now I get to return some of that, in kind. Just you and one other remain to be dealt with. I’m still in control. The Fangs of Death haven’t taken hold of me, yet. Then, I need to do what should have been done over one hundred and twenty years ago.

Agate closed her eyes remembering a time over a century ago. The scene around her changed from the tree-damaged deck. She was now in her bedroom, just a few blocks in distance yet many years in time and location, away from here. A young lady on a rose topped, four-poster bed was giving birth. The sounds and smells of bread sellers and fishmongers, in French, were heard outside.
“That's good, Talrya, push, push. Yes, I see the crown.”
“Help! Mother, the pain, it's so much.” Talrya lay there, legs spread, her body bathed in sweat.
“One more big push should do it, dear.”
“I hate you, Armin Vanbery!” Talrya screamed as she provided the push her mother asked for.
“I hope you and Bram have fun in hell!”
“Oh, Talrya, Armin will pay for what he did. I promise that my erstwhile brother’s days are numbered. As for the baby, it's a boy and looks healthy as well. Why, he even has split eyes, one hazel and the other blue.”
“Bram and Armin can never know, never! Armin’s as deranged as Uncle Vlad was.”
“Yes dear, I'll see that they don't. I can take care of Bram as well if you’d like. Now, I'll clean the baby up, and then you can hold him. Have you thought of a name?”
“I don't want to hold it or name it. I told you to kill it. It's an abomination!”
“It’s a baby, Talyra, your son. It didn’t get to pick its parents. Yet, it’s your child, so as you wish. According to our custom.”

Should I have killed the boy as Talyra wished, and not given him to a troupe of gypsy vampires who owed me a favor or made her keep the baby to raise? It turns out that showing mercy to that baby was a mistake that's been seeking me for well on thirty years now. Well, Bram and Armin did get theirs.

[ScienceGirl]

Thanks again for putting yourself out there and letting me use your work as an example. I'm only going to comment on the use of italics in this one, some examples of bits that would work in deep POV. 

Jun 28, 2021 22:26:49 GMT -6 pelwrath said:

Here are the first two pages of my book. The way I had it before upload. When uploaded all the italics disappeared

Ashland, Ohio

Agate watched the brick and slate Cape Cod from some bushes on the side of the house. The gabled eaves, styled shutters, gray brick walls, and second-story back deck. Oh, what a facade you created, you evil son of a bitch. This is a great line for italics. She's speaking directly to someone. This is a line that she might say to his face as dialogue, so it really doesn't work as fragmented deep POV. Good job here.

The front door opened. Three women carrying cleaning supplies left saying thank you to a man with a beard: Mike Dunbar. The women climbed into a van decorated in bold print: “The Minute Maids. Always glad to squeeze you in.” As they drove away, Mike closed the door. Agate checked her watch, 5:15 pm.
In over four hundred years, I've killed, stolen, lied and a host of other things I’m not proud of. I've never killed for pleasure! You call it hunting. Now, you're the hunted. Again, good use here. She's still talking directly to someone. 

The garage door opened and a Ford Transit with a luggage carrier pulled out. Mike Dunbar leaving on his annual camping and trapping expedition at the nearby Funk Bottom Wildlife Area. Agate looked at the approaching dark sky and smiled. Large raindrops started falling about an hour later. Shakespeare ain't got nothing on the tempest I'll be! This is a line that could work with or without italics. Personally, I'd have gone without italics because she's thinking a thought about herself. Most people don't speak thoughts like this out loud unless they're super narcissistic. 

Agate waited to see if the approaching storm changed Mike’s plans. It didn't. Deep POV thought, no italics. Good use. The young trees that lined the street to Dunbar's house, bent to the wind. A garbage can tumbled past, subject to the errant gusts. Then the deluge came. Noah would have felt at home. Deep POV thought. Good! Neither rain nor wind mattered to Agate. She ignored the discomfort of her silver-streaked, chestnut hair, as it matted to her neck. The water trickled into her London Fog trench coat. Agate strode to a tall pine tree in Mike's backyard, her Harley Davidson boots squishing through the water-soaked ground. She leaned against the tree’s trunk and started pushing, her heart beating faster, her breathing becoming heavier, as she continued to push. She laughed upon feeling the sting of sweat run into her eye, amid the driving rain. Her boots made small furrows in the soaked ground, yet she was rewarded for her effort; the base of the pine tree moved. Its roots loosened and the surrounding dirt gathered in clumps away from the base, making it easier to move. A strong gust almost caused her to slip. Agate grabbed a low branch to steady herself. With a powerful shove, the wet ground finally lost its hold and roots began breaking as they emerged from the ground. The tree toppled onto the deck; the sound of breaking glass heard over the boom from a nearby lightning bolt.
Hope you don’t have a cut-rate insurance company. Agate smirked and with the grace of a panther, jumped onto the tree trunk. Mike, you’re a pathetic excuse for a vampire. She stepped through the branches and onto the deck, crunching broken glass beneath her boots. I'd never let a wet behind the ears piece of shit like you bring me to your version of hell! I saw that Jubilea Simbolo pin at last year’s alumni dinner. You, Traditionalists, are twisted and evil, the worst traits of vampires and humans. Your fellow Traditionalists killed my mother and caused my daughter immense pain. Now I get to return some of that, in kind. Just you and one other remain to be dealt with. I’m still in control. The Fangs of Death haven’t taken hold of me, yet. Then, I need to do what should have been done over one hundred and twenty years ago. This is appropriate use of italics. She's in a monologue with this character we haven't met yet, but she's not actually speaking aloud. So good job again! I really like how you divided her thoughts up with some action. I'll send you a PM with some comments about paragraphing and how you can add a bit more of that action and really make this internal dialogue pop out. 

Agate closed her eyes remembering a time over a century ago. The scene around her changed from the tree-damaged deck. She was now in her bedroom, just a few blocks in distance yet many years in time and location, away from here. A young lady on a rose topped, four-poster bed was giving birth. The sounds and smells of bread sellers and fishmongers, in French, were heard outside. You are right in this bit to not use italics. Again, you could add a little more thought or action to it because it's dialogue-heavy, but if you are writing in deep POV, definitely no italics in this bit.
“That's good, Talrya, push, push. Yes, I see the crown.”
“Help! Mother, the pain, it's so much.” Talrya lay there, legs spread, her body bathed in sweat.
“One more big push should do it, dear.”
“I hate you, Armin Vanbery!” Talrya screamed as she provided the push her mother asked for.
“I hope you and Bram have fun in hell!”
“Oh, Talrya, Armin will pay for what he did. I promise that my erstwhile brother’s days are numbered. As for the baby, it's a boy and looks healthy as well. Why, he even has split eyes, one hazel and the other blue.”
“Bram and Armin can never know, never! Armin’s as deranged as Uncle Vlad was.”
“Yes dear, I'll see that they don't. I can take care of Bram as well if you’d like. Now, I'll clean the baby up, and then you can hold him. Have you thought of a name?”
“I don't want to hold it or name it. I told you to kill it. It's an abomination!”
“It’s a baby, Talyra, your son. It didn’t get to pick its parents. Yet, it’s your child, so as you wish. According to our custom.”

Should I have killed the boy as Talyra wished, and not given him to a troupe of gypsy vampires who owed me a favor or made her keep the baby to raise? It turns out that showing mercy to that baby was a mistake that's been seeking me for well on thirty years now. Well, Bram and Armin did get theirs. I think this line could be better as a mix of italics and deep POV. You want to be careful having bit blocks of italic text the same as you want to be careful with big blocks of anything in a story because readers have such a low span of attention. It would also help to cut some of your thoughts into more stilted bits. People don't typically think in really long sentences. But I'm going to show you some options:

Fully in Italics: Should I have killed the boy as Talyra wished?  Should I have not given the baby to a troupe of gypsy vampires to raise?  Showing mercy to that baby was a mistake that's been seeking me for well on thirty years now. Well, Bram and Armin did get theirs.

Fully in deep POV: Should she have killed the boy as Talyra wished? Should she have not given the baby to a troupe of gypsy vampiers to raise? Showing mercy to that baby was a mistake that had been seeking her for well on thirty years now. Well, Bram and Armin did get theirs.

A mix: Should she have killed the boy as Talyra wished? Should she have not given the baby to a troupe of gypsy vampiers to raise? Showing mercy to that baby was a mistake that had been seeking her for well on thirty years now. Well, Bram and Armin did get theirs.


A different mix: Should I have killed the boy as Talyra wished? Should I have not given the baby to a troupe of gypsy vampiers to raise? Showing mercy to that baby was a mistake that had been seeking her for well on thirty years now. Well, Bram and Armin did get theirs.

So what you're seeing here is that choosing to italicize or not basically controls where you place the emphasis. Having variation lets you make certain lines stand out. If you added in some action, too, that showed your readers her emotion as she thought those lines, it would have even more impact. 

Overall, I think you have a better understanding of italics than you think. Deep POV is a more advanced, tougher thing to master, and you're on the road to that. Nice job!

[pelwrath]

OMG! I thought that when the glitch removed the italics it would be terrible. The book was printed with no italics here.
Good to know that I was doing it fairly close to proper and that the italics not being there isn’t as bad as I thought.

[ScienceGirl]

It would just look like a tense error for most of it with the deep POV, and a lot of readers wouldn't know the grammatical difference. Very easy to go back and fix.